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Few actors in the history of film have earned the level of universal acclaim and respect as Al Pacino. His work has influenced generations of moviegoers, with films like The Godfather, Serpico, Scarface, and countless others that questioned the cinematic status quo and launched the very medium of film into uncharted territory. It’s high praise, but few would argue against it, though Pacino himself would say, “I try to do the best I can with what I have.”
Pacino’s latest film, American Traitor: The Trial of Axis Sally, is based on the true story of Mildred Gillars, an American expatriate who became a propaganda-spewing disk jokey for the Nazi cause during World War II. After the Nazi regime fell, Gillars was captured and repatriated back to the United States, where she stood trial for treason. Pacino plays James Laughlin, her defense attorney, who blurs the line between doing his job as a lawyer and entertaining the crowds (and the press) with his unique brand of deliberately visible performance art. As the character says in the movie, “Be prepared… But don’t look prepared.” The film also stars Meadow Williams and Mitch Pileggi. An exclusive clip from American Traitor can be seen above, showcasing Pacino, as Laughlin, delivering part of his closing remarks to the jury before they head in for deliberations.
While promoting the release of American Traitor: The Trial of Axis Sally, Al Pacino spoke to Screen Rant (via e-mail) about his work on the film, as well as his greater career. He talks about getting to the core of James Laughlin, collaborating with director Michael Polish, and how the courtroom summation scenes of the film compare to the 1979 classic, …And Justice For All. He talks about growing up in the South Bronx in New York City, and the transformative effect his early days in off-Broadway collectives like The Living Theatre, influenced his development as an artist. He also discusses some of the deeper cuts from his catalogue of film, including Looking For Richard and Phil Spector.
American Traitor: The Trial of Axis Sally, releases May 28 in select theaters and On Demand.
Did you know about Axis Sally? You were a little boy in 1948; was her trial national news, and were you and your family glued to the television, or were you more concerned with hanging out with your friends and playing outside?
When I think about it, I was probably enjoying the haven that was the streets of the South Bronx. I was definitely not watching TV back then, and that’s because we didn’t have one. Those were radio days! I doubt I was aware of the Axis Sally trial. I have no memory of it as a kid. If I had to bet on it, I was out with my friends.
Was there anything in particular that helped you get in character to play James Laughlin? Is it the clothes, the hair, the glasses, the shoes, something about getting ready in the morning that transforms you into the character? Or is it just “acting, baby!”
I enjoyed the character of James Laughlin. Not that it’s explicit in the film, they do hint at it, but he was hired to fill a specific role in the trial. That concept intrigued me. He must behave somewhat covertly. He’s a lawyer with a reputation, who’s operating as he always does, with a kind of “here now, gone tomorrow” fashion with his antics. He is also kind of smart and gifted. All of that made for an interesting situation to interpret. He was someone who at times was flip and opinionated, a bit of a dancer, and who is being altered, a little against his will. I thought I would enjoy the playing of that kind of character.
American Traitor is a fascinating look at empathy and whether or not Mildred Gillars deserved to be held responsible for the things she did, especially when she was effectively held captive by the Nazis. In my opinion, she forfeited her right to empathy when she opted to stay in Germany once it became obvious things were heating up, but I wonder if I’m a bit too cold and heartless… Your character goes through something of a subtle, even subtextual personal journey with regards to his own feelings on the matter of Gillars’ guilt. How much of that was established in the script, and how much did you bring to it when you signed on to play the role?
I guess even for James Laughlin it was a bit of a revelation to understand how much of a victim she was. He must have had to try to understand how people can make these fatal mistakes because they are desperate. Not everybody has the kind of character, belief system, education and experience to cope in a situation like the one Mildred Gillars found herself in while in Nazi Germany, away from home in a troubled country. I think that the lawyer that I played somehow saw this, but he still had a responsibility to make sure she must not get away with it. At least that’s my thinking. As I write this to you I want to avoid giving away the final decision of the jury because it could take away the entertainment value of the film. Regardless of the outcome that was reached, I believe he didn’t want this woman to be hanged, plain and simple. So, I think he had to do a convincing job of having that jury identify with certain aspects of her situation.
There was such a historical weight on Laughlin’s shoulders. The verdict would set a precedent that would have a direct impact on all similar cases moving forward. Historical consequences.
Somewhere within him, I think he believed she was going to get nailed. Whatever was going to happen to her, guilty or not guilty, the price that would be paid would be on James Laughlin’s head.
Your performance as James Laughlin is a layered exercise in how a showman draws on the energy of a room in order to keep the audience hanging on every word. At this point in your career, can you do these complex roles on “auto-pilot,” so to speak, or do you still have to prepare the same as you did when you were first building your reputation?
I try to do the best I can with what I have. Of course, I spend a lot of time just trying to navigate the summary in a courtroom drama. I take what’s there in the text and try weave a bit more into it. I say, “What if I were a really a lawyer, what if this was really happening, etc.” That’s usually in the subtext, but in a courtroom scene you always use your own sense of things and sometimes you also use your own words that just come to you. What I mean by all that is what ends up on screen is not always the words that are written in the script. In today’s world of film-making we don’t have much rehearsal time, so what we try to do is work on our own, privately. I’ve had to do something like this before in other films; take …And Justice for All, for example. I remember back then, having a partner to help put that closing summary together. You get a frame for what you are trying to do in relation to the storytelling, and you try to fulfill that.
When you’re on the set of any movie, but especially one featuring young actors, I bet people constantly go up to you, asking for advice or just thanking you for inspiring them over the years. Is that unwanted attention for you? Are you a “clock in and clock out” kind of actor, or do you try to carve out the time during a lull on set to chat with your adoring fans and co-workers?
So, if you’re asking me, do I enjoy the engagement with others on set? I do. I enjoy working. I’ve met friends over the years that I have become extremely close with because of working and it’s one of the most rewarding parts of this profession. I like it when people talk to me on set. I think it’s fun. When you’ve been doing this for as long as I have, people are interested in your take on things, especially young people. It’s never unpleasant, it’s always interesting. I do like it and I like getting to find out about them too. That’s fascinating to me; what they are thinking, how they feel. I don’t make it a practice to go too far on advice, I really don’t have much.
Tell me about working with the director, Michael Polish, and what he brought to the story. Could you talk about how you like to collaborate with directors? Are you fiercely protective of your characters, or is it the actor’s job to always follow the director’s lead? Or do you take it on a case-by-case basis?
Pretty much a director provides you with an ambiance and you make do with that. If you get lucky you get a director who enjoys engaging with actors and is open to whatever suggestions you come up with because it always becomes a collaboration, especially when you’re working with each other for the first time. I usually defer to the director because it’s their interpretation of the film that will either make or break it. I think Michael Polish had some really good ideas and he found ways to juxtapose scenes in a way that I think helped the film. In the end, it’s a director’s film. Film is a director’s medium and it’s always been that way. When that works, the film works.
You’ve starred in some of the greatest movies ever made, and worked with iconic directors like Michael Mann, Francis Ford Coppola, Sidney Lumet, Brian De Palma, and so many others, and these movies are tremendously well known and universally beloved. I’m sure you’re tired of talking about Scarface and Godfather by now, so… Are there any movies you’ve made that you’re particularly proud of, but that you feel didn’t get the attention they deserved? Are there any hidden gems of yours that you’d like to shout-out for the Screen Rant reader?
Well, that’s really an encouraging question. I’d have to really think about it because as they say, some films hit and some miss. In the late 90s, I started making my own films that were more connected to ideas I had. A few were adaptations of plays I did and one or two were ones I wrote and directed. I do believe that the film, Looking for Richard, was a worthwhile venture for me. I guess I can say it’s the kind of the film that finds its audience. Finding its audience relies a lot on how it’s promoted since so many people go to films for various reasons so you have to seek out the people who would go see this kind of film and that takes time, commitment and – of course – money.
Yeah, there’s so many movies, but only a select few get a significant marketing budget.
Sometimes, by calling a film small or little, which seems to be a reputation for independent films and lower budget films, they are sort of overlooked since they don’t have mass appeal. However, some of those kinds of films do have more to offer than what’s expected. Especially if they are pushed in a way to reach an audience that wants to see something different, something they weren’t expecting. We’re lucky because the world today now has the internet and streaming services. So in time, films find an audience or the audience finds them. Have you seen Carl Theodor Dryer’s The Passion of Joan of Arc?
I have not.
That’s something I heard about all my life, but never actually saw until recently. I came across it during the pandemic on a streaming service (HBO Max) and what ended up happening was, I saw what’s been hailed by those who’ve seen it, and critics abound, as probably the best performance in film history. It’s a silent film and a powerhouse of inspiration. It’s been around for almost one hundred years, but I just saw it now. In the past, things were hard to find, but now it’s become so much easier. I wish I saw it long ago. How great is that I got to discover something so incredible that was made almost one hundred years ago? I guess that says a lot of about what’s popular, what lasts and how you often see things that came out years and years ago and then ask yourself, “why wasn’t this seen, how did I miss it?” So many great films are being discovered again or for the first time. In a way, these streaming services are like one big great museum.
It’s hard for me to pick a single favorite performance of yours, but Phil Spector in the HBO original film is easily way up there. That performance is a dangerous display of frailty, menace, and genius. He had possibly the greatest musical mind in history, maybe second only to Brian Wilson, but he was a ticking time bomb. I think it was only a matter of “when,” not “if,” he would do something he couldn’t come back from. Was his complex legacy a difficult subject to tackle, or was it an impetus for you to take the role in the first place? Do you have any stories from working with David Mamet and Helen Mirren that you could share with us?
Well, I’ll say right off the bat thank you for that recognition. Helen Mirren is simply a joy to be around. I never look forward to going into work more than when I have the chance to engage with her, both on and off the set. She is the mensch of mensches. Now of course, Mamet and I go way back to the American Buffalo days. He’s been very important to me and the projects we’ve done together. I just know when I’m with him, I’m in the presence of something rare. He inspires. When that project was offered, I wasn’t interested in working! But when the chance to work with them and this character came along it became undeniable. I couldn’t not do it, if you know what I mean. Barry Levinson produced it as well and he’s someone I’m very close with, so it had that, too. Mamet, Barry Levinson, Helen Mirren and, of course, the complex genius of Phil Spector were all there. It came with all these perks when it was handed to me. I have been lucky enough to fall into these wonderful opportunities and Spector was one of them. You always ride the slippery slope of doing something because it has a chance of being popular and/or controversial, or maybe it won’t be popular, but you feel it has something to say. That’s a choice that would be a luxury if given to any actor.
Have you seen Francis Ford Coppola’s recent re-edit of Godfather III, called The Godfather Coda: The Death of Michael Corleone? I’ve always really liked Godfather III, and especially your performance as someone whose lifetime of misdeeds have finally caught up to him. There’s something haunting about Michael Corleone in that movie, a man who wants to save his soul but knows it’s decades too late for him to undo the evil he’s unleashed and the lives he’s destroyed… But again, maybe I’m just too cold and judgmental. Many people have said the new edit is genuine redemption for the misunderstood classic, but I was wondering if you had any feelings, positive or negative, towards Godfather III and its bold storytelling decisions?
Well, the new Coda struck me as being more focused. That’s probably because either Francis or his editor had the ingenious idea of starting it with the Vatican negotiation. The original Godfather III could be somewhat confusing, and I thought Francis sort of straightened the boat, so the story is more palatable in Coda.
I imagine that anyone working with you gets nervous at having to somehow be able to keep up with the legendary Al Pacino. Have you ever felt intimidated by working with another actor? Even now, do you ever get nervous before shooting scenes? Or have you always been cool enough to not let nerves get to you?
All actors have to find a way to get through that. We’re all nervous and we all have to deal with it. The various ways we handle it is an individual thing. Yes, I have worked with actors that have intimidated me, and certain situations have intimidated me throughout my career, of course. I’m glad you asked this question, because it allows me to explain why I prefer the rehearsal process. When you have the opportunity to be around your fellow actors long enough, that stigma of intimidation gets lifted because we’re human beings trying to put something together, and that’s what each project comes down to. If you’re a high wire act and if that person on the other side is intimidating you as you leap through the air and need to be caught, you could fall. Somehow, just through rehearsing, that engagement with the other actors and the feeling of doing it together becomes clear and humanizing. Let’s face it, I think it may be a cliché what I’m about to say, but I’ll let it fly anyway: we’re a team. Judith Malina, the great director of the Living Theatre, said to me, “There’s nothing better than the collective because the wisdom of people that demand it is clarity itself.” You hear from people, and that’s why it’s so important. When we were working for Joseph Papp many years ago in a collective, I learned what it is: you’re sitting, around 30 strong, and everyone is talking about a scene together. Wow, the diversity, the ideas and the imagination and the energy lifts you up. That, in and of itself, is full of karma and vibe, and that’s what The Living Theatre with Judith Malina and Julian Beck represented. To me, The Living Theatre was the high theater art of the 20th century in the US. Along with The Group Theater, and the Lunt Family, and, of course, The Barrymores and so many great playwrights. For me though, it was The Living Theatre that made me think the most.
I was just a teenager working there with Martin Sheen, laying down sets for the play, The Connection, by Jack Gelber, directed by Judith Malina and Julian Beck. Those were the early days that filled me and showed me what could be achieved. I remember seeing The Brig by Kenneth Brown and going home afterward, and I didn’t leave my room for two days. This is the kind of effect that you live with that carries you to the next part of your life. It’s part of the stepping stones, and I can cite the moments in my life where I found inspiration. I’m going off on a bit of a tangent here. I don’t mean to go off into the clouds, but if indeed I was talking to any young actors and actresses out there, I would say that intimidation and nerves are simply part of the field you have chosen to work in. It’s full of that stuff, but it’s good idea it get out there, keep going at it, because the more you deal with it, the better you get at handling it.
Now that Broadway is on the cusp of finally coming back to life (knock on wood), are you planning a return to theatre, either as a fan or leading a show of your own again?
Well, certainly as a fan, I’ll be back. I don’t know what’s left of off-off Broadway, but I know there’s an off-Broadway and I know there’s always Broadway and I’d love to see all of it! I haven’t been back home in what feels like centuries. New York is my home, and I owe it a lot. I was born in the South Bronx, and as a teenager on my own, moved to Manhattan, where I was fed by the plethora of stimuli, adventure and spirit of a great metropolitan city with all it’s flaws, inconsistency and inspiration. Everything was happening on that little island. So, I’m going to fly back and see it all again. What a luxury! I’d just spend my time going in and out of theaters, like going back to the crib. I love it! Now, whether I work on stage again, well, that’s a question I can’t answer at this point. Of course, I would want to, but I haven’t really asked myself that yet because that would require not only the desire, but the play, and as you know, the play is the thing.
American Traitor: The Trial of Axis Sally, releases May 28 in select theaters and On Demand.
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